AM to operate after July 14?
 

Nearly all Internet Radio stations are goin to shut down on July 15, or else risk having to pay a year-and-a-half of unreasonable back royalties (almost all of which will go to bands that prog stations don't even play!). Is AM planing to defy the RIAA and stay running? Or will it also be shutting down?

Just wondering.

--Elliot

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

I don't know. This will be a decision we must await from Jim.

Aural Moon has been a big part of my life for the past several years. It's introduced me to new music and to new friends. The loss of Aural Moon will be devastating to me and to a great many of you. I keep hoping that there will be some 11th hour stay of execution ordered for all webcasters but, as you know, I have very very very little faith in my government to do anything right. They haven't done anything right yet during my brief visit here on this rotating conglomeration of stellar rubbish, so why should I expect they'd start now?

Anyway, here is the latest from SaveNetRadio.org:

http://www.savenetradio.org/press_ro...711-inslee.pdf

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

Thanks for the link....too bad Congressman Inslee can't do some other "acts" as he's going to the floor for the legislation. That seems to be the only "action" some of these money-grabbers understand.

I've been in touch with three of the bands that I will feature on the show... honest, hardworking musicians that deserve better than this. I echo vax's sentiments about the Moon being a big part of my life, but I worry about the musicians even more. It would be ironic if the station shut down the day I will feature these fine artists.

I haven't heard word one from Jim,, but from what I've been able to gather, he will make his usual rational and well-thought out decision. I can't see us just cutting everything off, but all I offer is speculation. I await also..now to post the show thread:rockband:

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

Inslee is my US Rep, and this is one of the extremely rare times I'm proud to say my congress critter supports & promotes my beliefs (DeFazio in OR was pretty OK too).

I can not stress this strongly enough: GO TO SaveNetRadio AND FIND OUT HOW TO FAX OR CALL YOUR US REPRESENTATIVE ASAMFP!!!. Then get in touch with your Senator as well.

Even if you have previously contacted them, do so again to reinforce your sentiments, especially if previously it was by online form or email. Calls/faxes carry much more immediacy of the issue.

Then find out how to support SaveNetRadio or any one of the other equivalent organizations. Even if you haven't been able to handle the $50 AM patron donation, can you not afford $10/$25/etc to ever be able to listen to non-mainstream Internet radio again?

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

It's so odd isn't it? Because of something happening in the USA, loads of people around the world will, probably, lose something very dear to their lives. Yet there is very little they can do about it.

Don't these Jerk-offs realise that their misguided, money grabbing plan will affect loads of people outside the US? Maybe they do but I don't think they give a toss.

Let me stress here and now that if Aural Moon stops streaming on July 15th it will not just die!!!!!!!!

The site will remain as a forum for us to continue to meet and share our thoughts, hopes, fears and aspirations.

The Family that is Aural Moon will continue regardless of what these foolhardy bureaucrats do.

Let's wait to see what Jim wants to do. We're with you all the way.

OK??????

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

I've actually cut down my listening to AM lately as to not suffer the immediate shock of no prog. Instead I listen to the refrigerator, as some would say "I couldn't hear the difference anyway" , but seriously it will be a loss as I won't listen to any other station except PhoenixFM that has a 2 hour prog show every Sat.

All I would say to Jim is don't take any risk that would mean being dragged in to the system that Vax knows all too well anp pay $$$$ for nothing. And let us hope a compromise falls into place. Otherwise KW has said all the right things.

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

So, if a shutdown is really looming... shouldn't we be considering relocating the stream out of the reach of the RIAA?

There must be streaming services in other countries who would be able to host our station.

Hopefully, Jim has figured out a legal loophole that will not cause AM to shut down... but if there is not one... what are the costs involved in moving out of their reach?...

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

Ulp!! ...I guess we are all watching the Station News Box For an Announcement, ................ :dunno:

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

http://www.offshore-web-hosts.com/?g...FQqgYgodBycIkg.

Of course it's possible. I proposed this months ago
to the sound of a resounding thud.
It's how gambling and porn sites operate.

If we need to go "subscription only" to help compensate,
I'm sure most here would be glad to pitch in.



If this doesn't fly, i'd be happy to help scout and recommend
indies from around the net, contact them for CD submission.
There's more out there than you may think.

C'mon guys, let's adapt!
If nothing else, it's a big "Fcuk You!" to the RIAA.

P e a c e

Kirk

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

Of course we'll adapt!

Just waiting to see what Jim wants, and then we can start planning if we need to. I've already offered my support in any way needed.

I like where you're coming from kirk.

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

Last minute court stay has been rejected: http://news.com.com/8301-10784_3-9743304-7.html

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

Hey neighbor-

It feels a little like farting in a tornado, but
Here's our Senator contact info-

Senator Patty Murray: (202) 224-2621
Senator Maria Cantwell: (202) 224-3441

Next time you're down Gig Harbor/Fox island way,
give a yell!

kirk

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

Abso-bloody-lutely mossy.

If we need to go subscription my CD purchasing will be more than willing to take a hit!!!!!!!!!

AM means a lot to me (you don't say Keithie!!!) and I know it means a lot to a lot of others out there too. So if I can help I will........this is where PayPal comes into it's own!!!

Let's wait for Officer Jim to say his piece and support him to the hilt.

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

I agree with everyone, if it means not purchasing a few luxuries to keep the moon functional then so be it. I have found the moon a great place to escape the rigors of life and enjoy every moment I am online. the company is not so bad either. Hope we can continue.

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

Just picked this up on PE:


At thursdays's Congressional hearing about the new rates for online radio that would essentially destroy it (as readers of this blog already know), SoundExchange, which was scheduled to receive the new royalty payments on Monday morning (since the enforcement date falls on a Sunday), made a startling statement.

The SoundExchange executive [Jon Simson, executive director] promised -- in front of Congress -- that SoundExchange will NOT enforce the new royalty rates. Webcasters will stay online, as new rates are hammered out.

I just spoke with Pandora founder Tim Westergren, who expressed relief that Pandora wouldn't have to shut down on Sunday in response to the new rates. He said, "It was getting pretty close. I always had underlying optimism that sanity was going to prevail, but I was beginning to wonder."

He said everyone who called their Congress person about this should feel that they had an effect on the process: "This is a direct result of lobbying pressure, so if anyone thinks their call didn't matter, it did. That's why this is happening." The flyer DiMA distributed to Congress today probably helped a bit too, but overall, it appears Congress intervened due to pressure from web radio listeners.

Funnily enough, Westergren told me this mere hours after a representative of SoundExchange said that the new rates are "etched in stone." Evidently not.

-----

Update: Another source -- close to the situation although not inside today's closed-door hearing -- confirmed the following: Pandora was there; "progress was made"; the minimum fees are indeed off the table; and SoundExchange and the webcasters that were part of the Copyright Royalty Board hearings are going to have another chat about the rates.

However, the source said the big question right now is whether webcasters not part of the CRB hearing might still have to pay the rates set by the board, minus the minimum fees. Basically, this news qualifies as a reprieve, but internet radio won't be truly saved until negotiations result in a workable royalty rate.

------
Another Update: This story has been confirmed by Kurt Hanson of RAIN.

Westergren had more to say, lending insight into a process that was largely opaque to non-participants. Apparently, the per-channel minimum fees mandated by the Copyright Royalty Board were never taken very seriously by those involved. They've now been taken off the table completely, saving Pandora, Live365, and other multicasters from their most imminent threat. Instead, per-station minimums will be capped at $50,000 per year.

"No one thought those per station fees were remotely rational. It only makes sense that they're being taken off the table."

As for the Copyright Royalty Board? They're entirely cut out of the process, having set the rates and then refused a rehearing. Going forward without the royalties being collected, SoundExchange and webcasters will negotiate a new royalty rate with Congress looking over their shoulder -- "and last but not least, the public looking over Congress's shoulder." Alternatively, Congress now has time to consider the Internet Radio Equality Act, which would set webcaster royalties at 7.5 percent of revenue and allow them to continue operating pretty much as they have been.

Either way, this is a big win for webcasters and their listeners. Again, this is a reprieve, and internet radio can't be considered saved until new rates are set that everyone can live with.

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

Hopefully, this could be the begining of a new age for AM. I look forward to a celebration party on the moon.

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

:yougo Happy Happy, Joy, Joy!:yougo

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

Today's a day to celebrate, the foe have met their fate.
The order for rejoicing and dancing has come from our warlord.


Not quite yet, I'm afraid; this is only a small battle retreat. We need to keep pressure on our legislators (you know 'em, the pigs in the public trough of taxation in Washington DC) to pass the IREA. This is radio, despite the transmission medium being the internet, and we should not be treated differently than the rest of the radio providers.

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

Agreed VAX. That is why I am doing the Happy Happy Joy Joy dance and not the Snoopy dance!

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

Can I Paypal some of my AM donation to instead see that? :winkies: :yougo

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

I just Paypal(ed) $100 for my Patron status plus......let's make the plus a video of Julie's dance. :) :rofl:

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

These SoundExchange guys are a real piece of work:

The disputed status of the deal had some Internet radio operators claiming that negotiations were tantamount to a reprieve on the deadline.

SoundExchange denied that assertion and said nonpaying webcasters would be charged retroactively with interest, said Richard Ades, a spokesman for the group.

With interest! Their shamelessness knows no bounds.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...071601484.html

I hope Congress passes the IREA soon, it appears that is the only way to settle this once and for all.

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

Yeah, and now now they're insisting on DRM on streams:

http://blog.wired.com/music/2007/07/...xchange-d.html

They probably were headed there all along, and the 1200% raise was only a 'negotiating' point. Bastards!

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

Help me out here.......

"I just want to get back to helping webcasters get business and figuring out how get more ad revenue," said Johnie Floater, general manager of media at Live365. "We've been spending all of our time playing lawyers and lobbyists."

I read this quote and it sounds to me that Live365 is fighting to use music for free to enable internet radio to make profits.

You see the inconsistency? This is not the same fight we have. Not only are we non-profit (which doesn't mean non-exempt from this) but we do this for no reason but to have fun. We do not sell ad space! We play music.

While I think that Sound Exchange is reprehensible in their tactics, they do have a valid point. And in the end, I cannot see how Live 365 can say this and expect not to get whacked.

So by association, we will eventually be swept into whatever happens with the "big boys". And that's a shame - we're HELPING artists and that's it!

So watch a good thing be forever dissolved, while your kids steal music and hurt artists.

Lovely!

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

I'm not going to read into what their statement meant. I will say though that this whole internet radio thing is new and many have yet to figure out how to make money from it. Do you remember the .BOMB era of the late '90s. Sights were running in the red but stocks for them soaring. This was all on a lot of speculative gambles that the web would win them fortunes -- it did not. There are sites from that era that did survive and make it, but there are many more that failed. Unless you are actually "selling" something, making money on the internet is dicey at best. Many of the sites we all visit are littered with ads sold to pay for the space. For example, my favorite, mywaste.com ;) People go there and setup pages for free. GREAT, I suppose, and companies pay for ad space to make this possible. However, is there really any gain from these ads? In many cases, it's difficult to prove.

The RIAA and SoundExchange have been buffaloing the public that streaming radio is making big money. I don't believe it and even if it did, why should streaming radio pay humongous amounts to do what the traditional air-waves broadcasters do for free?

WHich is why the artists are following the links on sites like savenetradio.org to voice their opinions. The non-big-label artists will never see a single iota of the money SE collects. For that matter, I wonder how much money the big-label artists will see.


I do not think it is right to download music unless it is explicitly sanctioned by the artist(s) as a free download. I personally enjoy the tangible media.

While most of what is downloaded I could care less about, I do have to look at it as if it is music and artists that I do. Unless the music creation model changes, free music is not free. Steve Hogarth has spoken at length about his/Marillion's ideas for changing the model when they did their album pre-orders. It sounded like a really great idea but I doubt it could ever truly work.

I still think that the "traditional" model of exposing a listener to the music and then, if they like what they hear, they purchase is a model that will be with us for a long time. If the RIAA/SE/LoC CRB have their way, this model will be corrupted. Strange is that this is how they've been making money for as long as music radio has been popular... at least the past 50 years... maybe more.

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

To my knowledge nobody is arguing that they should be able to stream music without paying the publishers/artists for using their content, but rather that there is a large disparity between terrestrial radio which only pays publisher fees (paid to songwriters & publishers of the original tune), satellite radio which pays publisher fees as well as 7.5% of profits as artist fees (which pays the performer of the tune regardless of whether they wrote it) and internet broadcasters which have been hit by the vastly more onerous fees that have caused the current furor. The point is that there should be a level playing field regardless of broadcast medium. Your point regarding whether the station profits being a deciding factor in usage fees may have some validity and we can hope some provisions are made to help out non-profit broadcasters like AM, but the larger issue is the difference in fee structure based on the transmission medium IMHO.

It seems to me that SoundExchange (and therefore the RIAA and therefore the large media companies) are just trying to shut internet radio down because they can't control it. Pretty much anybody can be an internet radio broadcaster, it has a much lower barrier to entry as the business folks say, due to much simpler transmission equipment and no need to license frequency spectrum. So the current entrenched regime is fearful because they see their oligopoly slipping away. At least that's what it looks like to my eyes.

It seems to me like a basic charge of $500/year + 7.5% of profits might be a reasonable across the board fee rate, that way artists get paid by everybody, non-profits just pay a flat $500/year and the for-profit big stations share their profits and the artists get exposure as well. If this were used for all broadcast media it seems it would be a fair system IMHO. I guess stations would need to keep some kind of track play count as well so SoundExchange would know how to divvy up the fees from each station.

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

Very salient points, vax, but my entire rant has to do with the fact that we seem to be wanting to protect a medium that wants to operate like regular radio. Live 365, etc. they're companies. They want to make money.

That's not what we're doing here. This is a community. Regardless of whether the existing model is right (and we all know it's f'd up) if someone wants to operate an internet station for profit, expect the fees to be levied. I know it's obscene....

As for the above, the artists use myspace exactly to promote the traditional model. They give out samples of their work and then the opportunity to buy it. I couldn't care less about the ads. Annoying, you bet. But let them fight and make money. I operate an account because I was suggested that it was a great way to promote the show. It's been great.

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

Jt, I like your ideas. One thing though....

To charge based on profit would reduce the incentive. There are only two types here.....accepting advertising revenue or accepting only donations.

To my knowledge we only accept donations. There's no money for those a'holes to grab....so we'd be left alone I'd hope.

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

I seem to remember after having read the complete diatribe regarding rates, in the beginning, that there was a fee model based on the small non profits, in addition to the large for profit stations. According to the fee structure for the small non profit, it wasn't a completely obliterating amount. I need to find that document and read it again...it was legaleeze and very long. Unless they've changed the content, iirc there was a clear difference in definition and treatment between the two types of station - profit and non.

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

Yes Mossy. It may be semantics, but it's what type of revenue that is accepted to me should be the determination. Donation supported stations should get a break.

There's really no such distinction between profit and nonprofit. It's just that's all these people understand, I guess.

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

Here's what goo posted in a previous thread:

The problem with the "non-commercial" definition in the above fee structure is that it's based on some arbitrary number of listeners (namely 218 24/7/365 listeners). It shouldn't be user count based IMHO, that could mean one starts the year at a low rate and then sometime during the year your user count exceeds the threshold and now you're liable for outrageous fees that you can't afford. I guess one could limit the stream count for the station, but that won't work for AM since patrons each get a dedicated 128K stream, so unless the 56/24K streams get reduced each time a patron is added the limit would eventually be exceeded if the user base continues to grow. And at some point there would be no more free streams and the next patron to donate would put you over the limit.

Also notice that the per song fees proposed above arbitrarily increase over time. I guess I could see setting a current fee and then tying that fee to the consumer price index or something, but they more than double it from 2006 to 2010.

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

I'm just a small speck of dust in this matter, but from the perspective of a small indie producer, I am VERY happy to share our music (meaning the music of the various musicians who contributed their time and efforts to compile the CDs we have been releasing), which would otherwise have a much more limited exposure. In our case, we make no money on sales as it's contributed to help support our other online community and the band (Gentle Giant). The exposure and just the interaction with you all is priceless, and I think other indie artists feel the same. Our music can be heard here, without royalties. If you like what you hear, you will support that artist or band. I've done it, and I prefer a more open market that the new media allow us. I don't care to have a fat cat trying to follow what they think is a winning musical formula dictating what will be available to my ears.

Prog on, friends!

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

You, other indies and artists are all happy, in many cases overjoyed, to have a station like Aural Moon play the music.

What sticks in the back of my throat is that the RIAA runs to the LoC CRB demanding fees and they do NOT represent all of the indies and artists. I know Jim had said he'd remove ANY AND ALL material here that is under the auspices of the RIAA if/when ever their usurious fees go into effect. However, it seems to me they may enforce their demands by collecting play statistics from the stream replication services. That's going to be one hell of a lot of data to mine to see if everyone is paying the pye-dogs what they demand.

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

I think goo is probably right:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...-push-drm.html

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

Do we really have a problem with this, unless our normal listening sw copes with it? I do not need the recording feature, although I used it to listen to shows I was not able to attend "live".

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

I guess my beef with it is that in the US (and probably elsewhere as well) we have the right to record broadcast content, I think VAX cited the relevant law earlier. It's just another fair use right the media companies are trying to take away IMHO.

They've already succeeded in basically extending copyright indefinitely, which pretty much removes the public domain for future works in my view. I have no problem with content creators receiving compensation for their work during their lifetime, but nowadays corporations who purchase the rights to the works are basically able to retain rights to the content ad infinitum, I have a problem with that, they didn't create it, they just purchased the rights to it and I think there should be some limit on that lest the classics die.

For example, if that had always been the case, it's quite possible that most of classical music would not be performed today since it might be cost prohibitive for a symphony to play it if they had to pay some corporation for the right to perform it. Similarly, libraries might cease to exist. It wouldn't surprise me if they go after that next.

Another thing music publishers are doing is trying to shut down sites that collect guitar tablature like http://olga.net which I have contributed to in a small way. Even tho I figured out the tune on my own and provided a description of how to play it (perhaps incorrectly), their desire to prevent me sharing that information undermines the sharing of knowledge that the internet facilitates so well. Of course if anybody thinks I'm full of it, I'd be interested to hear your take on it.

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

True. There is much case law regarding the "fair use" doctrine of copyright law -- USC 17 §107. The general consensus reported from and about this case law is that it is OK for "personal use". Now, of course, the lawyers will argue what the term "personal use" and what the word "is" means! :P


Scary eh? Glad you too are abreast of what they are trying to take from us -- basic freedoms and privileges! Yessir! This is the good ol' US of Eh?.


Next?



Now that is just completely wrong. To me, that is a violation of free speech doctrine.

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

OK, time to contact your (US) congress critters again, looks like IREA is going down: http://www.wired.com/entertainment/m...EA_faces_music

Oh, and Sound Exchange is now on the warpath to go after *broadcast* radio fees, and is (illegally) using their funds to lobby: http://www.wired.com/entertainment/m...ning_post_0806

This whole thing is making me sicker & sicker!

Re: AM to operate after July 14?
 

Reduction of fees are still fees. Once it happens, it can only get worse. We'll just have to react accordingly. I almost hope the IREA doesn't pass. that would be admitting these robbers have a right to any money.