the GENESIS story...

[Rick and Roll]

Rarely are bands as prolific or good as when they start out. There's usually not a clear demarcation as to when bands decline, but it's inevitable.

I suggest that you may find that Genesis may have travelled the same road with Hackett on board.

"Your Own Special Way" is a beautiful tune. But it's certainly pop.

I'm not suggesting to see Genesis now. Personally iIwould not (arena setting, spoiled on good venues, price, etc). But I like some of the post-Duke material. If you don't like "Fading Lights" from "We Can't Dance", you have really just haven't given it a chance. It stands up to most of their great early material.

And why does Gabriel get a free pass for "Sledgehammer"? Again personally I like the song. but it was as popular, overplayed, and trite as most of later Genesis.

Remember, I'm someone whose favorite Genesis record is Selling England, song is Musical Box, etc. i have no special interest in or affinity for post-Hackett Genesis. But take each record on its own merits.

Yes can put out some less than stellar material. they don't seem to get the same treatment.

[VAXman(Admin)]

Originally Posted by Rick and Roll

I suggest that you may find that Genesis may have travelled the same road with Hackett on board.

"Your Own Special Way" is a beautiful tune. But it's certainly pop.

Could be true but we'll never know. "Your Own Special Way" is on W&W and maybe it was the impetus for Hackett's departure?

Originally Posted by Rick and Roll

And why does Gabriel get a free pass for "Sledgehammer"? Again personally I like the song. but it was as popular, overplayed, and trite as most of later Genesis.

I didn't hand out any free passes. That song was deplorably trite. It might have been an attempt to hook new listeners though to sell the album.

[Rick and Roll]

Originally Posted by VAXman

Could be true but we'll never know. "Your Own Special Way" is on W&W and maybe it was the impetus for Hackett's departure?



I didn't hand out any free passes. That song was deplorably trite. It might have been an attempt to hook new listeners though to sell the album.

Best part of the song is the understated guitar in the middle. He probably had a lot to do with it..

Deplorably trite...i like that

[progdirjim(Admin)]

Originally Posted by Rick and Roll

Rarely are bands as prolific or good as when they start out. There's usually not a clear demarcation as to when bands decline, but it's inevitable.

I suggest that you may find that Genesis may have travelled the same road with Hackett on board.

"Your Own Special Way" is a beautiful tune. But it's certainly pop.

I'm not suggesting to see Genesis now. Personally iIwould not (arena setting, spoiled on good venues, price, etc). But I like some of the post-Duke material. If you don't like "Fading Lights" from "We Can't Dance", you have really just haven't given it a chance. It stands up to most of their great early material.

And why does Gabriel get a free pass for "Sledgehammer"? Again personally I like the song. but it was as popular, overplayed, and trite as most of later Genesis.

Remember, I'm someone whose favorite Genesis record is Selling England, song is Musical Box, etc. i have no special interest in or affinity for post-Hackett Genesis. But take each record on its own merits.

Yes can put out some less than stellar material. they don't seem to get the same treatment.

I think one big difference is in the trend. Yes has rebounded from their worst albums with some fairly good material. Peter Gabriel is stylistically all over the place, and his most recent album has very good stuff on it. But early Genesis (IMO) was some of the best prog ever. Later Genesis is consistently weak. And, the trend which started on Wind & Wuthering (one poppy but nice track) continued to get worse, until later albums are virtually unlistenable to prog fans.
The other big factor is the "depths of their disgrace" - Genesis's lows are lower than Yes's, and even lower than that ELP abomination "Pirates" (joking, but couldn't resist) - "Illegal Alien"? "We Can't Dance"? Please - those aren't even good POP songs.

[RogorMortis]

I'm not suggesting to see Genesis now. Personally iIwould not (arena setting, spoiled on good venues, price, etc). But I like some of the post-Duke material. If you don't like "Fading Lights" from "We Can't Dance", you have really just haven't given it a chance. It stands up to most of their great early material.

For once in my life I support Rick to the hilt. "We can't Dance" is a much better album than all the preceding after Duke. Jim is right that Genesis have made cheap pop songs but at the time there was not that much else to be had (pre internet times) so we lapped it up. But like all good things come to an end Genesis petered out after Wind and Wuthering.

I have, though, bought a ticket to see this bunch of old men. I've only seen Genesis once before and that was the same bunch. Old Genesis I've missed up here in the desert, when I was just a poor student. So I have to make do with what we can get. In that sense, you others who only would see the re-united Genesis, are going to miss something. The old Genesis will not unite in my opinion.

[Rick and Roll]

Originally Posted by progdirjim

I think one big difference is in the trend. Yes has rebounded from their worst albums with some fairly good material. Peter Gabriel is stylistically all over the place, and his most recent album has very good stuff on it. But early Genesis (IMO) was some of the best prog ever. Later Genesis is consistently weak. And, the trend which started on Wind & Wuthering (one poppy but nice track) continued to get worse, until later albums are virtually unlistenable to prog fans.
The other big factor is the "depths of their disgrace" - Genesis's lows are lower than Yes's, and even lower than that ELP abomination "Pirates" (joking, but couldn't resist) - "Illegal Alien"? "We Can't Dance"? Please - those aren't even good POP songs.

I can go for this reasoning. That puts it in a good perspective. The only thing I'd point out is that "Open Your Eyes" is worse than any of it and "Love Will Find A Way" from Big Generator is really low.

I'm surprised about opinions of Duke. Except for the one really crappy song (we all know what that is), it's a good record. Heathaze, CuldeSac? Good stuff.

Rogor - we agree on a lot....you're not fooling anybody.

[ivan_2068]

Some interesting points and a lot to discuss as I love

Rick and Roll wrote:

Rarely are bands as prolific or good as when they start out. There's usually not a clear demarcation as to when bands decline, but it's inevitable.

I suggest that you may find that Genesis may have travelled the same road with Hackett on board.

Honestly I don't agree, they could have turned simpler, this was almost impossible to avoid in the late 70's but the reason why Hackett was harrassed and his contributions to Genesis systematically rejected is because he refused to take the easy way.

The relation Hackett - Banks was damaged since the release of Voyage of the Acolyte, Banks was the only Genesis member not involved in this album, so he placed pressure in the members to avoid solo careers (Hackett was the only one with a solid solo career at that point) but when Steve tried to add adventurous compositions to Genesis they were rejected because they wanted to do something simpler.

They had to change with or without Hackett is a fact but I'm sure Steve would have never participated in any post Duke album (Even when I don't like ATTW3 or DUKE, both have a couple good moments), that's for sure.

Rick & Roll wrote:

"Your Own Special Way" is a beautiful tune. But it's certainly pop.

The problem is not the POP "per se" there's good and booring POP, IMHO Genesis POP is of the second class.

Remember that Your Own Special Way is a pure Rutherford song added only because they didn't had enough material and Banks refused to add more Hackett stuff.

It's also important to notice that More Fool Me is in Selling England by the Pound and For Absent Friends in Nursery Cryme, there was some room for POP, but not to turn the band into a parody with 100% boring Adult Contemporary Pop.

If I want POP I buy a Fleetwood Mac or Cranverries album, I know what I'm paying for but I won0't buy a Genesis, Yes, King Crimson or VDGG album to listen POP

Rick and Roll wrote:

I'm not suggesting to see Genesis now. Personally iIwould not (arena setting, spoiled on good venues, price, etc). But I like some of the post-Duke material. If you don't like "Fading Lights" from "We Can't Dance", you have really just haven't given it a chance. It stands up to most of their great early material.

Honestly I hate everything they did after W&W including the insane mutilation of most Hackett parts in Seconds Out and that horrible Supper's Ready charicature by Collins.

Rick and Roll wrote:

And why does Gabriel get a free pass for "Sledgehammer"? Again personally I like the song. but it was as popular, overplayed, and trite as most of later Genesis.

Again, it's not one of Gabriel best moments but it's 1'000,000 times better than aberrations as Who Dunitt? or Illegal Alien.

And nobody says Gabriel alone made too much Prog, but all his projects are far more adventurous than anything Genesis did after Steve left.

Rick and Roll wrote:

Remember, I'm someone whose favorite Genesis record is Selling England, song is Musical Box, etc. i have no special interest in or affinity for post-Hackett Genesis. But take each record on its own merits.

I can't find a single merit in post Hackett Genesis, I could only wish they would have retired or at least had the decency to change the band name.

Rick and Roll wrote:

Yes can put out some less than stellar material. they don't seem to get the same treatment.

Well, 90125 and Big Generator are pretty horrendous also.

Iván

[Rick and Roll]

Originally Posted by ivan_2068

Honestly I don't agree, they could have turned simpler, this was almost impossible to avoid in the late 70's but the reason why Hackett was harrassed and his contributions to Genesis systematically rejected is because he refused to take the easy way.


Remember that Your Own Special Way is a pure Rutherford song added only because they didn't had enough material and Banks refused to add more Hackett stuff.

Honestly I hate everything they did after W&W including the insane mutilation of most Hackett parts in Seconds Out and that horrible Supper's Ready charicature by Collins.

I can't find a single merit in post Hackett Genesis, I could only wish they would have retired or at least had the decency to change the band name.


Iván

I was under the impression that Hackett was repressed from the beginning. this did not start after Gabriel left. Tony Banks and Mike Rutherford have always exerted the most imfluence.

Right about Rutherford. that's what I've been saying for years about Genesis. This isn't a Collins thing. Let's not forget he was in Brand X from 1976-1980. Banks and Rutherford are as much to "blame".

I saw them in 1982 do Supper's Ready. Pretty damn good.

There's a thousand other bands you could say the same thing about. Why should they change their name?

On a lighter note.....what's going on with this Peruvian erotic theme park?